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09 May 2008 @ 09:24 am
Very Important Trill-Related Questions!  
Friday is still a work day, but this week has wiped me out so throughly, I'm okay with taking my morning break by soliciting flist opinions on this very important Star Trek conundrum.

Okay, so, Sister and I were watching DS9's "Way of the Warrior" the other night as part of our Kasidy Yates marathon (we're such nerds), and we got into an argument about the Trill. See, in that episode, Dax has a holosuite version of a Sexy Trill Spa, and there are holographic Trill massage boys wearing wee shorts and nothing else. And I go, "HEY! Aren't Trill supposed to have a line on their stomachs for the symbiont pocket?" And Sister is all, "Um, no," and we hashed out the following nerdy pro-and-con evidence:

Reasons Against a Symbiont Pouch Opening:
1) TNG's Odan had no visible pocket. (He also has no spots, though.)
2) Holographic nearly-naked peeps in this episode.
3) "Um, why would they have a pocket? They're not kangaroos."

Reasons For a Symbiont Pouch Opening:
1) In DS9's "Invasive Procedures," Dax totally does. We were pretty sure the line was there pre-surgical-incision, but Gira says we should write that off as Season Two Makeup and nothing more.
2) Dax always wears a one-piece swimsuit, even when Kira is in a bikini. And Dax is much more of a hussy than Kira, so there must be a reason.
3) "Wouldn't some kind of orifice-y thing have evolved in the Trill? Because I can't imagine they discovered they were a joined species one time when someone said 'hey, let me slice a hole in you and see what happens if I put this slug in here...'"

Once we got talking about Odan, we thought about something else very Trill-important. Since the Enterprise folk have no idea about the Trill join-i-ness, we have to assume it's a big secret and no one knows. I also got the idea from something (possibly The Lives of Dax) that the Trill are pretty xenophobic, and don't want other people to know about the symbionts. So, do you think the Trill were basically outed after "The Host," and somebody on Trill sent out a press release, and all joined Trill got some sort of memo that they could now tell aliens about the symbionts? Curzon Dax knew Sisko before "The Host," timeline-wise, so I wonder if there was a moment of "Well, hey, apparently we can talk about this now, so... surprise!"

Please weigh in on these pressing issues, or else I will worry that I am the only one who thinks about these things.
feel: contemplativecontemplative
Havochavocthecat on May 9th, 2008 04:56 pm (UTC)
or else I will worry that I am the only one who thinks about these things.

...it's totally not just you. I CAN PROMISE YOU THAT.


I have no theories, though, because your outline of everything is AWESOME and I'm flabbergasted by it.

Though maybe Sisko and Curzon Dax got to be BFFs enough that they (Curzon and Dax) ended up trusting Sisko enough to tell him about the symbionts?

Some day we're going to be on g-talk, and then you should bug me for my theory on the Tok'ra and how they're more Trill-like (CLEARLY) than the Goa'uld, and the Goa'uld actually shortcut the process of blending so they can retain complete control, but biologically, the host and the symbiote are supposed to share control of the host body. The Goa'uld are totally doing it wrong.

...this has everything to do with the fic that angelqueen04 and I are working on that has Elizabeth blended with Isis.
Little Red: trek - dax ooh! - viresse_iconsmylittleredgirl on May 9th, 2008 05:14 pm (UTC)
I know! It's such a conundrum. I just think that if some people knew about the symbionts, someone would've made a medical journal entry about it, and Beverly should have known these things!

I am ALL ABOUT the Tok'Ra. Me and besyd wanted to create a whole tokra-loving community and website and millions of fanfics and then... yah, never happened.

funny pictures
moar funny pictures
holdouttroutholdouttrout on May 9th, 2008 05:10 pm (UTC)
Jadzia is WAY more of a hussy than Kira ever was--you're right about that. (Also: girl on girl kiss!)

I've always assumed that they *don't* have pockets for the symbionts. "Invasive Procedures" was a very early episode, so I always ret-conned the issue. And TNG's Odan was, er...well, fairly un-Trill-like in a lot of respects. So either he's a mutant, or the concept just wasn't as fully developed. Or there are Trills who both do and don't have spots.

OR the surgery CREATES a pouch for the symbiote. That, actually, would make a certain kind of sense. I don't know why the joining would have started, but then I also don't know why people thought it would be a good idea to pierce various body parts before the first person did it and looked cool.

Also, re: the secrecy--I've always assumed that joined Trill told people they were close to. But then again, TNG vs. DS9 interpretations of an alien race.

May I just say, in closing: Kasidy Yates!

I need to watch this show again.
holdouttroutholdouttrout on May 9th, 2008 05:38 pm (UTC)
Also, Er...Hi!
Little Red: trek - sisko niners - nos'mylittleredgirl on May 10th, 2008 08:29 pm (UTC)
I think I can get behind the surgery thought now. There must have at one time BEEN Trill who had natural pockets or something... because this is more than just piercings in the sense that Trill actually evolved to be a joined species, whereas we didn't have to evolutionarily change anything to have metal in our noses.

Kasidy Yates! Can you believe she was only in 10 episodes!?
holdouttroutholdouttrout on May 10th, 2008 08:51 pm (UTC)
Kasidy Yates! Can you believe she was only in 10 episodes!?

She was? Wow. She was mentioned in a LOT more.
tarkheena lizzeeen: alias [there! right there!]liminalliz on May 9th, 2008 06:10 pm (UTC)
Little Red: trek - encyclopedia - ghost_sheepmylittleredgirl on May 9th, 2008 07:47 pm (UTC)
I KNOW! I can't wait for medie to weigh in, because she knows even moar than me and Sister about Star Trek. (Except we might know more about TNG, just because it has been played on loop in our homes since 1987. If there is no Star Trek playing, we are all "... whut is that noise? Is that the fridge? Oh no, it's the noise of SILENCE.")
Opaloparu on May 9th, 2008 10:29 pm (UTC)
I think they surgically go in and implant it. I don't think they scar because trek surgeons are the awesome most of the time.

I think Jadzia wears the one piece because HER LEGS ARE AMAZING and we need to pay attention to them.

I don't know if Odan was really a trill? was he? He didn't have the spots. Maybe he was another race, that was more sneaky about having symbiotes.

Maybe the first joining happened in an injury? In one of the books, Julian can talk to the Dax symbiote (which is in a tank) because he's hurt his hands.

maybe it's just not really talked about. Sisko seems to know, but it seems to not really be part of the general knowledge. I mean, it probably comes up in Trek Biology, but people probably don't think they'll meet one.

I think it was lives of Dax where McCoy had to save Emory when she was injured, so he must have known about the symbiote.
Little Red: trek - dax ooh! - viresse_iconsmylittleredgirl on May 10th, 2008 08:32 pm (UTC)
Whyfore is the Dax symbiont in a tank? And he can communicate with it in his brane because he is hurt? ... that is v. strange.

I think that everyone seems to know by the time DS9 runs around, because the Klingons are all "Dude, you used to be Curzon Dax!" and everyone's sort of OK with that. (Not to mention, that one planet where that guy accuses Jadzia of murdering his father because Curzon was there...).

And I totally forgot about that part of Lives of Dax! I thought they just did sex a lot.
(Deleted comment)
Little Red: trek - dax ooh! - viresse_iconsmylittleredgirl on May 10th, 2008 08:33 pm (UTC)
I think you have solved it!

SOME Trill have magical pouch openings. Most don't, and those can still join through surgery. Laa!
Jara Dax: Lusty Heathen: [bleach] ichigowoodface on May 10th, 2008 12:03 pm (UTC)
From memory-alpha:

However, the disparity between Trill seen on TNG and the later Trill goes beyond makeup. "The Host" seemed to make it clear that the symbiont was dominant (in fact, the symbiont is referred to as a parasite on more than one occasion), and that the host was merely a body with no influence over the joined entity. Odan was apparently unable to safely use the transporter while Dax used it often with no trouble at all. Odan was ready to pick up where he/she and Crusher had left off despite the Trill taboo against reassociation. Perhaps Odan and other Trill like him represent either a sub-species of Trill or maybe even a different race altogether.

The early diagnosis of a "parasite" may be the reason joined Trill could not previously use Starfleet transporters – the biofilter may have detected or even attempted to kill the symbiont. After the Odan incident, their joined nature became public knowledge throughout the Federation, and it is likely these filters were reprogrammed to allow Trill (such as Dax) to transport without worry.

I don't think the Trill have pouches, I always thought it was done surgically. It's quite possible that the first "natural" joining happened more in a goa'uld like manner and so they developed the surgery to make it more pleasant.
Jara Dax: Lusty Heathen: [fs] lost in spacewoodface on May 10th, 2008 12:05 pm (UTC)
Oh and read this.
Little Red: trek - dax ooh! - viresse_iconsmylittleredgirl on May 10th, 2008 08:38 pm (UTC)
I kind of can't imagine the docile little Trill symbionts implanting themselves all viciously a la the Goa'uld, can you? But I think you're on to the right idea...

I read that other article and, um, I think I'm more able to suspend disbelief about Trek things. I sort of ignore the spots/ridges thing, because, well, spots are cuter! And my theories on other things:

1) In "The Host," Will Riker's personality does show through a little, and Picard comments on it. I think that it's possible for the symbiont to exercise mor control over a host, especially one (like Ezri, for example, who is totally overwhelmed by Dax at first, and Riker) who has no training.

2) I always thought the no-transporter thing was because Odan's symbiont was so ill. But I like the idea of crazy biofilters!

3) I think the reassociation taboo doesn't really apply to Odan, because he and Bev were only together for a few weeks. It's not like he built a LIFE with her, so the symbiont isn't having to really relive lots of old experiences. And Ezri knew Julian as Jadzia, and Curzon and Sisko were old friends, so having it only really mean "marriages" allows for all that.

I love thinking about Star Trek and things!